WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.440 I forgot for lemons, and on several occasions, I was like, 2 00:00:03.440 --> 00:00:06.240 "I'm just gonna go back grab those for lemons and get the hell out." 3 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:07.760 - You should go to prison. 4 00:00:07.760 --> 00:00:09.200 - I know, you think they're gonna ban me? 5 00:00:09.200 --> 00:00:11.200 - They should throw you in jail. 6 00:00:11.200 --> 00:00:12.960 - But I didn't feel bad about it at all. 7 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:20.000 - I'm proposing a new term, micro-looting. 8 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.600 - I started going into the grocery store. 9 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:24.240 I would pick up the thing and I wanted it, and then I would go. 10 00:00:24.240 --> 00:00:25.840 - It's a survival technique. 11 00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:29.040 Gotta eat a lick, gotta steal the eater pain for that, right? 12 00:00:29.040 --> 00:00:31.280 - No, babe, food is a human right. 13 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.880 - People are taking small things from big corporations, 14 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:37.920 and they're feeling justified. 15 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:40.400 - Like, look, everyone's shoplifting from Whole Foods 16 00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:41.440 when you're shopping there. 17 00:00:41.440 --> 00:00:43.280 - But you're not gonna steal from a deli like that. 18 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:45.360 - But Whole Foods, fuck Whole Foods, 19 00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:47.520 fuck basil, fuck Amazon, all that. 20 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:49.680 - We should be rioting, but we're tired, 21 00:00:49.680 --> 00:00:51.440 so I'm gonna take these bagels. 22 00:00:51.440 --> 00:00:53.440 - But isn't a slippery slope? 23 00:00:53.440 --> 00:00:55.760 What's going on with our moral code? 24 00:00:55.760 --> 00:00:59.200 - To find out, I'm talking to political commentator Hassan Piker 25 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:01.040 and New Yorker writer, Jaya Tolentino. 26 00:01:01.040 --> 00:01:04.000 - Thank you both so much for being here with me today 27 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:05.120 to talk about this. 28 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:05.840 Hi, Jaya. 29 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:06.480 - Hi. 30 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:07.120 - Hi, Hassan. 31 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:08.080 - Hi. 32 00:01:08.080 --> 00:01:09.920 - I wanna start with a little exercise, 33 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.240 just about our own morals. 34 00:01:12.240 --> 00:01:15.760 Would you share your Netflix password? 35 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:17.440 - I do. 36 00:01:17.440 --> 00:01:19.440 - I also do, well, I-- 37 00:01:19.440 --> 00:01:20.400 - With anyone. 38 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:23.360 - For the longest time, I actually had someone else's 39 00:01:23.360 --> 00:01:26.240 Netflix password. That was my primary access to Netflix. 40 00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:28.160 - And now you share your own. 41 00:01:28.160 --> 00:01:28.640 - Yeah. 42 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:31.360 - Would you get around to pay while I'm an article 43 00:01:31.360 --> 00:01:32.080 you're trying to read? 44 00:01:32.080 --> 00:01:36.000 - Do it every day on my stream every day. 45 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:38.560 - Yeah, but I support it when people do it for my own work. 46 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:39.520 I say, go off. 47 00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:41.840 Use the way back machine. 48 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:44.160 - Would you pirate music from an indie band? 49 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:49.600 - Is it 2005 and I'm using lime wire? 50 00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:50.320 Because yes. 51 00:01:50.320 --> 00:01:53.040 - I feel like every millennial has at some point. 52 00:01:54.320 --> 00:01:57.040 - I feel like fundamentally Spotify is kind of like 53 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.800 deleterious to the musician livelihood and I use that. 54 00:02:00.800 --> 00:02:01.840 But then I go to the shows. 55 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.160 - Yeah, no, I'm pro piracy all the way. 56 00:02:04.160 --> 00:02:07.840 Like across the board, would you pirate a car? 57 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:09.760 Yes, you know, if you could. 58 00:02:09.760 --> 00:02:11.840 If one could pirate a car. 59 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:14.080 - If it was just the classic thing back in the day. 60 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:19.040 The government-funded anti-piracy initiatives would be like, 61 00:02:19.040 --> 00:02:20.160 would you steal a car? 62 00:02:20.160 --> 00:02:22.960 - Yeah, sure. If I could get away with it. 63 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:28.880 If it was as easy as you know, pirating IP, I would do it. 64 00:02:28.880 --> 00:02:33.200 - Would you dine and dash from your local diner? 65 00:02:33.200 --> 00:02:34.000 - Never. 66 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.240 - Never, tip 35 percent. 67 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:37.200 Mike's, come on. 68 00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:39.920 - No, I wouldn't do that. 69 00:02:39.920 --> 00:02:43.440 And if I saw somebody doing that, I'd probably pay for their meal. 70 00:02:43.440 --> 00:02:46.480 - Would you steal a book from the library? 71 00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:47.440 - Never. 72 00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:50.000 - No. 73 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:53.120 - What do you steal from the Louvre? 74 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:54.640 - Yes. 75 00:02:54.640 --> 00:02:58.720 - I would not be logistically capable of executing such a fact. 76 00:02:58.720 --> 00:03:02.400 But would I cheer on every news story of people that I see doing it? 77 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:04.240 Absolutely, absolutely. 78 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:06.240 - Yeah, I think it's cool. 79 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.640 We got to get back to cool crimes like that. 80 00:03:08.640 --> 00:03:10.480 Like, you know, bank robberies, right? 81 00:03:10.480 --> 00:03:14.960 Stealing priceless artifacts. 82 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:15.920 Things of that nature. 83 00:03:15.920 --> 00:03:21.600 I feel like that's way cooler than the 7,000th new cryptocurrency scheme 84 00:03:21.600 --> 00:03:22.880 that people are engaging in. 85 00:03:22.880 --> 00:03:25.760 - Would you steal from Whole Foods? 86 00:03:25.760 --> 00:03:27.920 - You want to go first? 87 00:03:27.920 --> 00:03:31.680 - Yes. 88 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.120 And I have under very specific circumstances. 89 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:37.200 I think that stealing from a big bookstore, 90 00:03:37.200 --> 00:03:38.960 I'll just state my platform. 91 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:43.120 It's neither very significant as a moral, wrong, 92 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.720 nor is it significant in any way as protest or direct action. 93 00:03:46.720 --> 00:03:49.840 But I did steal from Whole Foods on several occasions. 94 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:55.280 I've been involved in a neighborhood mutual aid group since 2021. 95 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:58.000 And so every week I would go get groceries for Miss Nancy, 96 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.920 my now family friend who lived nearby and she wanted to go to Whole Foods. 97 00:04:01.920 --> 00:04:02.960 She wanted food from Whole Foods. 98 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:04.640 So I was like, okay, great. 99 00:04:04.640 --> 00:04:08.320 And so I'd be getting Miss Nancy all her groceries and then I would finish and be like, 100 00:04:08.320 --> 00:04:09.760 oh my god, four lemons. 101 00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:11.120 I forgot four lemons. 102 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:13.200 And on several occasions, I was like, 103 00:04:13.200 --> 00:04:15.840 I'm just going to go back grab those four lemons and get the hell out. 104 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:17.920 - You should go to prison. 105 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:19.360 - I know, you think they're going to ban me? 106 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:20.160 - They should ban me. 107 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:21.520 - They should throw you in jail. 108 00:04:21.520 --> 00:04:23.200 - But I didn't feel bad about it at all. 109 00:04:23.200 --> 00:04:27.680 - And I was part of it because of how you feel about Whole Foods as a corporation. 110 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.160 - Yeah, it already felt like a bit of a compromise. 111 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.440 Like at the time I was like, I had not you been to Whole Foods. 112 00:04:33.440 --> 00:04:36.240 I had sort of, I had a bit more sort of consumer discipline 113 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.680 about where I was spending my money then. 114 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:42.400 And I already felt like I was in the hole even by shopping there. 115 00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:44.640 And it certainly felt in a utilitarian sense. 116 00:04:44.640 --> 00:04:47.600 I was like, this is not a big deal. 117 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:49.360 - Well, all right guys. 118 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:53.040 - I'm pro stealing from big corporations 119 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:56.800 because they they steal quite a bit more from their own workers. 120 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:02.080 However, one thing that might even help your ethical dilemma 121 00:05:02.880 --> 00:05:11.760 is the fact that the automated process that they design, these companies know will increase shrink. 122 00:05:11.760 --> 00:05:14.480 Right? So it's actually factored in. 123 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:19.840 The lemons that you stole are factored into the bottom line of these mega corporations 124 00:05:19.840 --> 00:05:26.000 regardless. And they still end up having increased profit margins because they no longer have to pay 125 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.480 the cashiers that they used to hire as opposed to this automated system. 126 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.360 Knowing full well that people are still going to be able to steal, 127 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:38.160 still steal a lot more efficiently as a matter of fact through the automated process. 128 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:43.440 - Totally. Well, also I was looking things like it and shrinkage is a roughly equal internally 129 00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:48.960 as externally. Like they expect it from their employees that they are sort of disenfranchising constantly. 130 00:05:48.960 --> 00:05:53.280 - But what about the argument that if everyone just starts stealing wantonly 131 00:05:53.280 --> 00:05:57.280 from the self-checkout machines, hopeful Whole Foods will eventually raise the prices? 132 00:05:57.280 --> 00:06:06.400 - Yeah. Chaos. Full chaos. Let's go. I mean, look, I'm in favor. I'm in favor of fast and free buses 133 00:06:06.400 --> 00:06:14.080 and also government-owned storefronts. And two of those policies, the mayor of this beautiful 134 00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:18.480 cities is currently working on. - Would you encourage stealing in the same way 135 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:22.720 from a Mambani run city-owned grocery store with other prices? And why? 136 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:30.000 - I would not, because I feel like that's taxpayer funded and the prices are this union labor 137 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:35.520 and the prices are also adjusted regardless. - I think that hypothetical is interesting, 138 00:06:35.520 --> 00:06:39.120 because if you look at it from a categorical imperative type thing, what if everybody did this? 139 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:48.720 The converse is like, oh, what if every major grocery chain stole from workers and consumers? 140 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:53.600 And that is basically true, right? Like, it's interesting. Like, I think it speaks to the thing where 141 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:59.200 a kind of harm committed by the individual strangely continually draws more 142 00:06:59.200 --> 00:07:05.600 higher than the same harm being committed by a structure. And so, I mean, and so I kind of am inclined 143 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:12.400 towards this. It's like, everyone try it. See what happens. - By the way, ironically enough, 144 00:07:12.400 --> 00:07:20.560 I don't personally do it. I never do it when I was younger. I stole some Pokemon cards from a friend 145 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:26.880 and my father punished me and it was such a harrowing experience that I've, like, I literally can't even 146 00:07:26.880 --> 00:07:34.160 steal like a candy bar. When we were in college, a lot of my, a lot of my friends used to love doing that. 147 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:39.440 You know, getting drunk, going to the gas station, five finger discount, I would never participate in it. 148 00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:44.320 And I still can't to this day participate in it. I'm just saying that I personally don't really care. 149 00:07:44.320 --> 00:07:50.240 If someone needs the food, they should absolutely steal it. - There's one thing that's like stealing when 150 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.560 you're a teenager and you want the adrenaline rush and part of it is about testing the rules and 151 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:59.760 getting away with something. But I feel like what I'm seeing on TikTok and social media is people 152 00:07:59.760 --> 00:08:04.000 saying that they're stealing from Whole Foods, not just for the thrill of it, but out of a feeling of 153 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:08.640 anger and moral justification because the rich don't play by the rules. So why should I? And 154 00:08:09.280 --> 00:08:13.600 Jeff Bezos has too much money, he's a billionaire. So I should I have to pay for again and call the 155 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:20.320 Cautos. My friends and I have started calling this micro-looting because it has a, like, 156 00:08:20.320 --> 00:08:24.080 slight political valence, the theft as opposed to just a thrill of getting away with something. 157 00:08:24.080 --> 00:08:28.960 Have you noticed this around you online? Have you noticed more people talking about stealing in this 158 00:08:28.960 --> 00:08:35.840 way? - I mean, I have, I have not seen people talking about micro-looting or such, you know, whatever 159 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:45.600 action that this is online. But I think, I mean, it kind of speaks to an attenuation of the tactical 160 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:51.360 language of direct action, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, like, it's like, it doesn't work for 161 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:56.560 me as a form of direct action because it's, it's concealed, right? Like, any successful direct action 162 00:08:56.560 --> 00:09:02.400 history has to be ostentatious, has to make itself known as ideally collective and this is sort of 163 00:09:02.400 --> 00:09:09.680 necessarily individual and hidden. But I'm like, oh, great. Let's think of ways to, like, let's take 164 00:09:09.680 --> 00:09:13.920 this energy and let's move it into some other thing. Like, I think it's, I think it's great that 165 00:09:13.920 --> 00:09:20.800 the valence of property is kind of on the table as something to be toyed with in terms of direct action. 166 00:09:20.800 --> 00:09:26.640 I feel like we've forgotten there is a long and storied history of sabotage and sort of engagement 167 00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:32.560 with property destruction, even, which is abhorrent to people. I mean, yeah, you remember in 2020, 168 00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:38.400 the like Gucci Chanel stuff in Soho when that was looted. Well, then my PD is investigating a robbery 169 00:09:38.400 --> 00:09:44.000 pattern targeting high and clothing boutiques in Soho. Later, it's happening Tuesday at the Chanel 170 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:51.040 on Spring Street. That looms so much larger in many sort of Bloomberg liberals imaginations as 171 00:09:51.040 --> 00:09:55.760 profoundly more violent in some ways than the original action being protested, right? And I find 172 00:09:55.760 --> 00:10:00.960 that really interesting. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was thinking about the Boston Tea Party as part of 173 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.960 like that's a political destruction of property. And yet right now it feels like I agree with you, 174 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:13.120 the looting around the 2020 protests was such a huge talking point. I made people so uncomfortable. 175 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:18.160 And I'm curious why, like, what do you think the root of that is? I was thinking, you know, 176 00:10:18.160 --> 00:10:24.960 that thieves are actually quite highly valorized and narrative, you know? I mean, Aladdin, 177 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:36.160 famously. Robyn Hood, yeah. We understand it's, it's well within the collective consciousness 178 00:10:36.160 --> 00:10:37.840 that stealing for need or