IC–061 | Hasan Supports 'Microlooting' Because Companies Factor It In
Transcript. Timestamps are stored-video seconds.

[0:00] I forgot for lemons, and on several occasions, I was like,
[0:03] "I'm just gonna go back grab those for lemons and get the hell out."
[0:06] - You should go to prison.
[0:07] - I know, you think they're gonna ban me?
[0:09] - They should throw you in jail.
[0:11] - But I didn't feel bad about it at all.
[0:12] - I'm proposing a new term, micro-looting.
[0:20] - I started going into the grocery store.
[0:21] I would pick up the thing and I wanted it, and then I would go.
[0:24] - It's a survival technique.
[0:25] Gotta eat a lick, gotta steal the eater pain for that, right?
[0:29] - No, babe, food is a human right.
[0:31] - People are taking small things from big corporations,
[0:34] and they're feeling justified.
[0:37] - Like, look, everyone's shoplifting from Whole Foods
[0:40] when you're shopping there.
[0:41] - But you're not gonna steal from a deli like that.
[0:43] - But Whole Foods, fuck Whole Foods,
[0:45] fuck basil, fuck Amazon, all that.
[0:47] - We should be rioting, but we're tired,
[0:49] so I'm gonna take these bagels.
[0:51] - But isn't a slippery slope?
[0:53] What's going on with our moral code?
[0:55] - To find out, I'm talking to political commentator Hassan Piker
[0:59] and New Yorker writer, Jaya Tolentino.
[1:01] - Thank you both so much for being here with me today
[1:04] to talk about this.
[1:05] Hi, Jaya.
[1:05] - Hi.
[1:06] - Hi, Hassan.
[1:07] - Hi.
[1:08] - I wanna start with a little exercise,
[1:09] just about our own morals.
[1:12] Would you share your Netflix password?
[1:15] - I do.
[1:17] - I also do, well, I--
[1:19] - With anyone.
[1:20] - For the longest time, I actually had someone else's
[1:23] Netflix password. That was my primary access to Netflix.
[1:26] - And now you share your own.
[1:28] - Yeah.
[1:28] - Would you get around to pay while I'm an article
[1:31] you're trying to read?
[1:32] - Do it every day on my stream every day.
[1:36] - Yeah, but I support it when people do it for my own work.
[1:38] I say, go off.
[1:39] Use the way back machine.
[1:41] - Would you pirate music from an indie band?
[1:44] - Is it 2005 and I'm using lime wire?
[1:49] Because yes.
[1:50] - I feel like every millennial has at some point.
[1:54] - I feel like fundamentally Spotify is kind of like
[1:57] deleterious to the musician livelihood and I use that.
[2:00] But then I go to the shows.
[2:01] - Yeah, no, I'm pro piracy all the way.
[2:04] Like across the board, would you pirate a car?
[2:07] Yes, you know, if you could.
[2:09] If one could pirate a car.
[2:11] - If it was just the classic thing back in the day.
[2:14] The government-funded anti-piracy initiatives would be like,
[2:19] would you steal a car?
[2:20] - Yeah, sure. If I could get away with it.
[2:22] If it was as easy as you know, pirating IP, I would do it.
[2:28] - Would you dine and dash from your local diner?
[2:33] - Never.
[2:34] - Never, tip 35 percent.
[2:36] Mike's, come on.
[2:37] - No, I wouldn't do that.
[2:39] And if I saw somebody doing that, I'd probably pay for their meal.
[2:43] - Would you steal a book from the library?
[2:46] - Never.
[2:49] - No.
[2:50] - What do you steal from the Louvre?
[2:53] - Yes.
[2:54] - I would not be logistically capable of executing such a fact.
[2:58] But would I cheer on every news story of people that I see doing it?
[3:02] Absolutely, absolutely.
[3:04] - Yeah, I think it's cool.
[3:06] We got to get back to cool crimes like that.
[3:08] Like, you know, bank robberies, right?
[3:10] Stealing priceless artifacts.
[3:14] Things of that nature.
[3:15] I feel like that's way cooler than the 7,000th new cryptocurrency scheme
[3:21] that people are engaging in.
[3:22] - Would you steal from Whole Foods?
[3:25] - You want to go first?
[3:27] - Yes.
[3:31] And I have under very specific circumstances.
[3:35] I think that stealing from a big bookstore,
[3:37] I'll just state my platform.
[3:38] It's neither very significant as a moral, wrong,
[3:43] nor is it significant in any way as protest or direct action.
[3:46] But I did steal from Whole Foods on several occasions.
[3:49] I've been involved in a neighborhood mutual aid group since 2021.
[3:55] And so every week I would go get groceries for Miss Nancy,
[3:58] my now family friend who lived nearby and she wanted to go to Whole Foods.
[4:01] She wanted food from Whole Foods.
[4:02] So I was like, okay, great.
[4:04] And so I'd be getting Miss Nancy all her groceries and then I would finish and be like,
[4:08] oh my god, four lemons.
[4:09] I forgot four lemons.
[4:11] And on several occasions, I was like,
[4:13] I'm just going to go back grab those four lemons and get the hell out.
[4:15] - You should go to prison.
[4:17] - I know, you think they're going to ban me?
[4:19] - They should ban me.
[4:20] - They should throw you in jail.
[4:21] - But I didn't feel bad about it at all.
[4:23] - And I was part of it because of how you feel about Whole Foods as a corporation.
[4:27] - Yeah, it already felt like a bit of a compromise.
[4:30] Like at the time I was like, I had not you been to Whole Foods.
[4:33] I had sort of, I had a bit more sort of consumer discipline
[4:36] about where I was spending my money then.
[4:38] And I already felt like I was in the hole even by shopping there.
[4:42] And it certainly felt in a utilitarian sense.
[4:44] I was like, this is not a big deal.
[4:47] - Well, all right guys.
[4:49] - I'm pro stealing from big corporations
[4:53] because they they steal quite a bit more from their own workers.
[4:56] However, one thing that might even help your ethical dilemma
[5:02] is the fact that the automated process that they design, these companies know will increase shrink.
[5:11] Right? So it's actually factored in.
[5:14] The lemons that you stole are factored into the bottom line of these mega corporations
[5:19] regardless. And they still end up having increased profit margins because they no longer have to pay
[5:26] the cashiers that they used to hire as opposed to this automated system.
[5:30] Knowing full well that people are still going to be able to steal,
[5:33] still steal a lot more efficiently as a matter of fact through the automated process.
[5:38] - Totally. Well, also I was looking things like it and shrinkage is a roughly equal internally
[5:43] as externally. Like they expect it from their employees that they are sort of disenfranchising constantly.
[5:48] - But what about the argument that if everyone just starts stealing wantonly
[5:53] from the self-checkout machines, hopeful Whole Foods will eventually raise the prices?
[5:57] - Yeah. Chaos. Full chaos. Let's go. I mean, look, I'm in favor. I'm in favor of fast and free buses
[6:06] and also government-owned storefronts. And two of those policies, the mayor of this beautiful
[6:14] cities is currently working on. - Would you encourage stealing in the same way
[6:18] from a Mambani run city-owned grocery store with other prices? And why?
[6:22] - I would not, because I feel like that's taxpayer funded and the prices are this union labor
[6:30] and the prices are also adjusted regardless. - I think that hypothetical is interesting,
[6:35] because if you look at it from a categorical imperative type thing, what if everybody did this?
[6:39] The converse is like, oh, what if every major grocery chain stole from workers and consumers?
[6:48] And that is basically true, right? Like, it's interesting. Like, I think it speaks to the thing where
[6:53] a kind of harm committed by the individual strangely continually draws more
[6:59] higher than the same harm being committed by a structure. And so, I mean, and so I kind of am inclined
[7:05] towards this. It's like, everyone try it. See what happens. - By the way, ironically enough,
[7:12] I don't personally do it. I never do it when I was younger. I stole some Pokemon cards from a friend
[7:20] and my father punished me and it was such a harrowing experience that I've, like, I literally can't even
[7:26] steal like a candy bar. When we were in college, a lot of my, a lot of my friends used to love doing that.
[7:34] You know, getting drunk, going to the gas station, five finger discount, I would never participate in it.
[7:39] And I still can't to this day participate in it. I'm just saying that I personally don't really care.
[7:44] If someone needs the food, they should absolutely steal it. - There's one thing that's like stealing when
[7:50] you're a teenager and you want the adrenaline rush and part of it is about testing the rules and
[7:54] getting away with something. But I feel like what I'm seeing on TikTok and social media is people
[7:59] saying that they're stealing from Whole Foods, not just for the thrill of it, but out of a feeling of
[8:04] anger and moral justification because the rich don't play by the rules. So why should I? And
[8:09] Jeff Bezos has too much money, he's a billionaire. So I should I have to pay for again and call the
[8:13] Cautos. My friends and I have started calling this micro-looting because it has a, like,
[8:20] slight political valence, the theft as opposed to just a thrill of getting away with something.
[8:24] Have you noticed this around you online? Have you noticed more people talking about stealing in this
[8:28] way? - I mean, I have, I have not seen people talking about micro-looting or such, you know, whatever
[8:35] action that this is online. But I think, I mean, it kind of speaks to an attenuation of the tactical
[8:45] language of direct action, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, like, it's like, it doesn't work for
[8:51] me as a form of direct action because it's, it's concealed, right? Like, any successful direct action
[8:56] history has to be ostentatious, has to make itself known as ideally collective and this is sort of
[9:02] necessarily individual and hidden. But I'm like, oh, great. Let's think of ways to, like, let's take
[9:09] this energy and let's move it into some other thing. Like, I think it's, I think it's great that
[9:13] the valence of property is kind of on the table as something to be toyed with in terms of direct action.
[9:20] I feel like we've forgotten there is a long and storied history of sabotage and sort of engagement
[9:26] with property destruction, even, which is abhorrent to people. I mean, yeah, you remember in 2020,
[9:32] the like Gucci Chanel stuff in Soho when that was looted. Well, then my PD is investigating a robbery
[9:38] pattern targeting high and clothing boutiques in Soho. Later, it's happening Tuesday at the Chanel
[9:44] on Spring Street. That looms so much larger in many sort of Bloomberg liberals imaginations as
[9:51] profoundly more violent in some ways than the original action being protested, right? And I find
[9:55] that really interesting. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was thinking about the Boston Tea Party as part of
[10:00] like that's a political destruction of property. And yet right now it feels like I agree with you,
[10:06] the looting around the 2020 protests was such a huge talking point. I made people so uncomfortable.
[10:13] And I'm curious why, like, what do you think the root of that is? I was thinking, you know,
[10:18] that thieves are actually quite highly valorized and narrative, you know? I mean, Aladdin,
[10:24] famously. Robyn Hood, yeah. We understand it's, it's well within the collective consciousness
[10:36] that stealing for need or