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- Every round. - Absolutely.

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- This doesn't justify the action, mind you.

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This is more so analysis to stop further violence

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from taking place, both violence in the region,

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but also violence in the home front as well.

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- The reason I bring up those things is because

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those are specifically cited by a song of Bin Laden

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as justification for, and I guess my question is--

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- And also our, you know, our civil liberties.

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- Well, did Bin Laden have a point?

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- No, I think that the action was so heinous

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and so violent and also given his position

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as formerly an American ally,

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as I believe it was a telegraph I call him,

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the brave warrior fighting against the USSR

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to try a path of peace in Afghanistan,

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I think that he came across a little bit more

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as a spoiled brat that wasn't getting his way,

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with many backers in the Saudi kingdom

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as well in the royal family.

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- Bin Laden, me, he wrote in that letter,

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which as you know, has sort of had a second life

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among some in the left wing,

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that Americans would be irrational,

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not to expect, to, irrational to expect

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to live in peace and prosperity

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after, you know, over half a century

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of meddling in the Middle East.

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Isn't that the definition of blowback?

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- Yeah, it is, it is the definition of blowback.

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And I want less actors, like Osama Bin Laden,

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to exist in general.

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There's two schools of thought on this.

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One is obviously to, you know, kill as many people

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in the region as possible,

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with the hopes that we can squash

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any kind of resistance whatsoever.

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And the other path of least resistance

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is to not interfere in these affairs in general

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and not continue to dominate

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and create an environment where people

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are going to seek out revenge and put us

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in a position of danger.

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- But it's just, what's the difference

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between deserved and blowback?

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- Yeah, I think the difference

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between deserved and blowback is the justification.

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- So blowback is not, blowback is not a justification.

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Blowback is just what it is.

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A justification offers either a moral condemnation

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or a moral acceptance of the act.

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I do not accept the act of 9/11 morally.

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I believe that it was a horrifying tragedy.

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- Also talking, you know, to keep on the Middle East

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a little bit, the Trump administration has used the fact

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of we can't let Iran have a nuclear weapon

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as justification for this war.

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- Do you think Iran should be free to build a nuclear weapon?

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- I think Iran, much like any other sovereign nation,

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has a right to defend itself,

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regardless of its domestic policies.

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My opinion on the matter is not dissimilar

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to what John Mersheimer has said,

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which is that in order to create regional stability

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in a world where mutually assured destruction

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is the only way for countries to have sovereignty.

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It's the same principle that I apply to Ukraine as well.

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Countries that would have nuclear arms

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in an age of nuclear proliferation

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are the only countries that can generate true sovereignty.

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Now, having said that, do I want Iran to have nuclear arms?

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No, but I also don't want America or Russia or China

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to have nuclear arms either.

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- Do you think the Middle East would be more stable

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if Iran had a nuclear weapon?

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- I believe yes.

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I think that the Middle East would be more stable.

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Having said that, once again, I'm not advocating.

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I'm not trying to, you know, send Iran

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in rich nuclear uranium, but with respect to Iran,

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I think the nuclear conversation is a distraction.

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Time and time again, they have shown the Iranian government,

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regardless of whether you want to trust them or not,

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you can just look at their actions,

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have proven that they are utilizing the conversation

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of enriched uranium as a point of leverage

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to bring America back to the table to get sanctions relief.

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And we had a successful deal in play with the JCPOA

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under the Obama leadership.

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It was very controversial.

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It was not only critically panned by the entirety of the right,

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but also even Democrats, including Chuck Schumer,

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were very critical of this deal.

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And yet it was probably Obama's signature

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foreign policy accomplishment.

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And it unfortunately took us a decade or two decades

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to come to that recognition,

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to come to terms with that reality.

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But I think that that deal alone,

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this, you know, multi-year, multilateral deal

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that actually brought in China and Russia,

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as well as European partners,

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the International Atomic Energy Agency,

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had shown that Iran was willing

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to engage in diplomacy with the West.

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- One last thing on the Middle East and on this topic,

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at least, you once said that America

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is the top dog in terrorism.

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- Yes.

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- Do you think America then is worse than al-Qaeda?

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- Pound for pound, as far as the number of deaths.

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Yes, we have caused tremendous terror all around the world.

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I think that that is not only terror

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that we are waging on regular civilians

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in nations in the periphery,

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but it's also having consequences on ourselves.

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It's having dramatic consequences on the home front.

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One clear example of this is what we did in Minna, right?

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There's no distinction between blowing up a school,

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triple tapping it with Tomahawk missiles.

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If you're killing 140 school girls,

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that is an act of terror.

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This doesn't mean that all Americans are terrorists,

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but the reality of the matter is,

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we have to create an environment of accountability

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to ensure things like that never happen again.

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If we wanna seek out and punish those who terrorize us,

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like al-Qaeda, sometimes, you know, we aid in a bet,

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al-Qaeda, when we find them to be a reliable ally

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in places like Yemen, for example,

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but if we understandably wanna seek out

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and punish terrorist entities like al-Qaeda,

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we should also hold ourselves to a similar standard.

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If not a higher standard.

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You said not all Americans are terrorists.

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- Not fair.

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- Well, insinuating that, some are.

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- I think if you are doing terrorism,

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then yes, you are a terrorist.

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This is a loaded term at the end of the day,

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it's a vague term, and I'm not deploying it

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in the way that the American State Department

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utilizes it, which is a utilization of the term,

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terrorism, with the express purpose

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of denying habeas corpus.

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I think everyone needs to have their day in court,

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no matter how vile or heinous they might seem.

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Having said that, like I keep repeating over and over again,

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I think it's important to create accountability

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to make sure that we do not repeat these mistakes,

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not only because it creates an environment of blowback,

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but also because there's a finite amount of time

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and energy that we have, right?

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If we're using all of our productive output,

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all of our resources, on waging wars overseas

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for profit and plunder, we're not using those resources

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on ourselves, we're not using it on building schools,

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we're not using these resources on fixing the pothole,

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something as simple as that,

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and we're losing our competitive edge around the globe.

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I'm an American citizen.

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I talk about how frustrated I am with this country,

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even say, God, I hate this country sometimes.

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Having said that, if I truly hated this country, one,

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I'd probably be a Republican, let's be real,

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because I think they're destroying this country,

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or I would just leave.

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There's a reason why I stay here.

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There's a reason why I keep advocating

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for the things that I'm advocating for,

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because I truly believe in the promise of America.

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I believe in the goodness of my neighbors,

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I believe in the goodness of American citizens,

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and I know that people of good conscience

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can see right from wrong,

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and a lot of people are frustrated

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because they're not seeing the changes,

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and that develops, that breeds apathy,

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and I want to fight back against that,

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and I want Americans to take control

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over the reins once again.

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(upbeat music)

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- I'm shifting topics, Charlie Kirk.

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You had known him for a long time.

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- Yeah.

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- After he was killed, you called it fucking devastating.

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You know, it's a horrifying thing you've ever seen,

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and pure horror,

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but months later, you started sarcastically

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singing the song "We Are Charlie Kirk."

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You sang it live last month on tour,

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and later explained, "It's not my fault.

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"The song is a banger."

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- Yes.

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- You told your followers when he was killed

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to stop making jokes.

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- Yeah.

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- But then why did you start?

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- Great question.

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The hagiography of Charlie Kirk was,

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and the forced reverence coming from,

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not only the Republican Party,

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but like the government in general,

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and even some members of the liberal intelligentsia,

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was the reason why there was so much pushback.

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And even the "We Are Charlie Kirk" song itself

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is a way to, it was an attempt by a Republican

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who was a fan of Charlie Kirk to honor his legacy.

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While Charlie Kirk, the actions that took place,

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the assassination of Charlie Kirk is a heinous crime,

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and completely unjustifiable,

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I very quickly also talked about my disagreements

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with Charlie Kirk.

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And there were plenty of people,

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plenty regular citizens who were doing that as well.

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There were people who-

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- I'm not pushing that.

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- There were people who-

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- No, no, no, no, but it's important,

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because this is a big part of why this backlash,

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or rather, this is a big part of why people

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took this not as seriously.

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The argument isn't,

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oh, these people are elated at the fact

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that Charlie Kirk was killed.

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Are there people who feel that way?

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Absolutely.

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I'm not one of those people.

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- Yeah, but when you sing the song to your audience,

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you know that some of those people

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are those people that are elated that he's dead.

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- There could be.

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I'm not going to deny that,

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but at the end of the day,

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my opinion, and the opinion of my community,

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is that political violence is completely unacceptable.

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However, it's also unacceptable

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to try to apply force reverence,

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and literally cancel people

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for quoting Charlie Kirk's own statements.

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- Understand it. - Pointing Charlie Kirk's own statement.

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- And firing people.

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- I understand, but by singing the song,

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aren't you mocking something?

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- I'm mocking Charlie Kirk's positions,

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and also on top of that,

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I'm mocking the force reverence that took place.

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I'm not mocking Charlie Kirk's assassination,

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I'm not justifying Charlie Kirk's assassination,

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I think that is unjustifiable.

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My position on that is very clear.

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- You don't think you're making light of it?

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- No.

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And the reason why I say that is because

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I have written extensively on the subject,

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not only was I supposed to,

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not only have I known Charlie.

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- Oh, no, I've read all the things.

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- For a decade.

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- Yes, but also I was supposed to be on stage with him.

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- I know, and an environment where political violence

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is justified against political actors

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is an environment where I'm also a danger,

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so it's a matter of self-preservation,

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as well as having a morally consistent position on it.

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- Okay, well, on the topic of political violence,

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that's part of the reason I wanted to bring up Charlie Kirk.

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I'm gonna read you some of the things that you've said.

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- Yeah.

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- After a debate with Kirk several years ago,

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you said on your stream, I wanna fucking kill him.

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- You then backtrack and you said,

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you meant it in a video game way.

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- I don't even remember this.

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- Can I get through them?

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- Yeah, go ahead and respond.

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- You were banned on Twitch in 2025

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after saying if people cared about Medicare fraud,

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they would kill Senator Rick Scott.

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- Yeah.

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- You wanna sit?

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- No, really quick.

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- Well, I wanna clarify because--

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- No, I can clarify them all, I just wanna go through.

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- I know, but if I do it piece by piece,

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if I do it, you know,