IC–038 | Middle East Would Be More Stable if Iran Had Nukes
Transcript. Timestamps are stored-video seconds.

[0:00] pushing whatever they find to be advantageous.
[0:03] The thing that I'm saying was, of course,
[0:07] that America's actions in the region,
[0:11] including aiding and abetting not only the Taliban,
[0:14] but also the Mujahideen and some instances,
[0:19] some of the factions that broke off and created al-Qaeda,
[0:22] ended up engaging in blowback
[0:27] for the consistency stabilization in the region.
[0:30] This is a position that actually, I believe,
[0:32] I was looking at the polls all the way back in 2001,
[0:34] had 66% approval, that America in some way, shape or form,
[0:39] was responsible for 9/11.
[0:41] What poll was this?
[0:42] Which is, actually, I'm gonna pull it up real quick.
[0:45] 'Cause I found it to be fascinating.
[0:46] I was recently going back to see like,
[0:48] what was the attitude even back then?
[0:50] Hold on, I might have actually presented it more favorable
[0:55] than it actually is, but I wanna quickly pull it up for you.
[1:00] It's a very old poll, and I was shocked by it, too,
[1:03] so I think it's fascinating.
[1:05] US wrongdoing might have motivated 9/11 attacks.
[1:09] In 2001, 33% of all Americans said that US wrongdoing
[1:14] might have motivated 9/11 attacks, 2002,
[1:18] by 2002, it was 38%, 2004, it was 38%.
[1:22] And amongst them--
[1:22] What poll was this?
[1:23] 30%, the poll comes from Pew Research.
[1:28] Okay, but that's less than 66.
[1:29] Yeah, yeah, I was wrong.
[1:30] It was what I was looking at was
[1:32] fully two-thirds of liberal Democrats.
[1:37] Got it.
[1:37] That said that, 67%.
[1:40] Having said that, of course,
[1:42] there is public approval, and then there is the truth.
[1:47] And not only do I believe that this was the truth,
[1:50] it's a well-established academic concept.
[1:52] CIA has also talked about it as well,
[1:54] but Robert Kagan, the godfather of neocons,
[1:57] recently wrote for the Brookings Institute about how,
[1:59] yes, of course, our meddling in the affairs
[2:02] of the Middle East is what inevitably caused 9/11.
[2:06] So, blowback, would that include US support for Israel,
[2:10] military bases throughout the Middle East?
[2:12] You know, U.S. oil policies.
[2:14] Absolutely.
[2:15] This doesn't justify the action, mind you.
[2:17] This is more so analysis to stop further violence
[2:21] from taking place, both violence in the region,
[2:25] but also violence in the home front as well.
[2:27] The reason I bring up those things is because
[2:29] those are specifically cited by a song of Bin Laden
[2:32] as justification for, and I guess my question is--
[2:35] And also our, you know, our civil liberties.
[2:38] Well, did Bin Laden have a point?
[2:42] No, I think that the action was so heinous and so violent
[2:46] that, and also given his position as formerly,
[2:51] an American ally, as I believe it was a telegraph
[2:55] that called the brave warrior fighting against the USSR
[2:59] to throw a path of peace in Afghanistan.
[3:01] I think that he came across a little bit more
[3:06] as a spoiled brat that wasn't getting his way
[3:11] with many backers in the Saudi kingdom as well
[3:14] in the royal family.
[3:15] Bin Laden, me, he wrote in that letter, you know,
[3:17] which as you know, has sort of had a second life
[3:19] among some in the left wing.
[3:21] Yeah.
[3:22] That, you know, Americans would be irrational,
[3:25] not to expect, to, irrational to expect to live in peace
[3:30] and prosperity after, you know,
[3:32] over half a century of meddling in the Middle East.
[3:34] Isn't that the definition of blowback?
[3:36] Yeah, it is.
[3:39] It is the definition of blowback.
[3:43] And I want less actors, like Osama Bin Laden,
[3:45] to exist in general.
[3:46] There's two schools of thought on this.
[3:48] One is obviously to, you know, kill as many people
[3:52] in the region as possible with the hopes
[3:54] that we can squash any kind of resistance whatsoever.
[3:58] And the other path of least resistance
[4:02] is to not interfere in these affairs in general
[4:06] and not continue to dominate and create an environment
[4:10] where people are going to seek out revenge
[4:11] and put us in a position of danger.
[4:15] It's just what's the difference between deserved
[4:19] and blowback?
[4:20] Yeah.
[4:21] I think the difference between deserved and blowback
[4:23] is the justification.
[4:28] Say blowback is not, blowback is not a justification.
[4:32] Blowback is just what it is.
[4:34] A justification offers a, either a moral condemnation
[4:39] or a moral acceptance of the act.
[4:42] I do not accept the act of 9/11 morally.
[4:44] I believe that it was a horrifying tragedy.
[4:46] Also talking, you know, to keep on the Middle East a little bit.
[4:52] The Trump administration has used the fact of,
[4:54] we can't let Iran have a nuclear weapon
[4:57] as justification for this war.
[5:00] Do you think Iran should be free to build a nuclear weapon?
[5:03] I think Iran, much like any other sovereign nation,
[5:10] has a right to defend itself,
[5:12] regardless of its domestic policies.
[5:15] My opinion on the matter is not dissimilar
[5:18] to what John Mersheimer has said,
[5:21] which is that in order to create regional stability
[5:23] in a world where mutually assured destruction
[5:26] is the only way for countries to have sovereignty.
[5:28] It's the same principle that I apply to Ukraine as well.
[5:31] Countries that would have nuclear arms
[5:33] in an age of nuclear proliferation
[5:35] are the only countries that can generate true sovereignty.
[5:39] Now, having said that, do I want Iran to have nuclear arms?
[5:42] No, but I also don't want America or Russia or China
[5:45] to have nuclear arms either.
[5:46] Do you think the Middle East would be more stable
[5:48] if Iran had a nuclear weapon?
[5:50] I believe yes.
[5:50] I think that the Middle East would be more stable.
[5:53] Having said that, once again, I'm not advocating.
[5:55] I'm not trying to, you know, send Iran
[5:57] enriched nuclear uranium, nuclear grade enriched uranium.
[6:00] But with respect to Iran,
[6:03] I think the nuclear conversation is a distraction.
[6:07] Time and time again, they have shown the Iranian government,
[6:11] regardless of whether you want to trust them or not,
[6:12] you can just look at their actions,
[6:14] have proven that they are utilizing the conversation
[6:18] of enriched uranium as a point of leverage
[6:21] to bring America back to the table to get sanctions relief.
[6:26] And we had a successful deal in play with the JCPOA
[6:29] under the Obama leadership.
[6:30] It was very controversial.
[6:31] It was not only critically panned by the entirety of the right,
[6:34] but also even Democrats, including Chuck Schumer,
[6:37] were very critical of this deal.
[6:39] And yet, it was probably Obama's signature foreign policy
[6:43] accomplishment.
[6:45] And it unfortunately took us a decade,
[6:47] or two decades, to come to that recognition,
[6:52] to come to terms with that reality.
[6:54] But I think that that deal alone,
[6:58] this, you know, multi-year, multilateral deal
[7:02] that actually brought in China and Russia,
[7:04] as well as European partners,
[7:06] the International Atomic Energy Agency,
[7:09] had shown that Iran was willing to engage in diplomacy
[7:13] with the West.
[7:14] - One last thing on the Middle East and on this topic,
[7:18] at least.
[7:19] You once said that America is the top dog in terrorism.
[7:22] - Yes.
[7:23] - Do you think America then is worse than al Qaeda?
[7:25] - Pound for pound, as far as the number of deaths.
[7:30] Yes, we have caused tremendous terror all around the world.
[7:33] I think that that is not only terror that we are waging
[7:37] on regular civilians in nations in the periphery,
[7:41] but it's also having consequences on ourselves.
[7:44] It's having dramatic consequences on the home front.
[7:47] One clear example of this is what we did in Minna, right?
[7:51] There's no distinction between blowing up a school,
[7:54] triple tapping it with Tomahawk missiles.
[7:56] If you're killing 140 school girls,
[7:59] that is an act of terror.
[8:00] This doesn't mean that all Americans are terrorists,
[8:03] but the reality of the matter is we have to create
[8:06] an environment of accountability to ensure things
[8:08] like that never happen again.
[8:09] If we want to seek out and punish those who terrorize us,
[8:13] like al Qaeda, sometimes we aid in a bet al Qaeda,
[8:18] when we find them to be a reliable ally in places
[8:21] like Yemen, for example.
[8:22] But if we understandably want to seek out
[8:26] and punish terrorist entities like al Qaeda,
[8:30] we should also hold ourselves to a similar standard.
[8:34] If not a higher standard.
[8:35] You said not all Americans are terrorists.
[8:38] And it's insinuating that some are.
[8:41] I think if you are doing terrorism,
[8:43] then yes, you are a terrorist.
[8:45] This is a loaded term at the end of the day.
[8:47] It's a vague term, and I'm not deploying it
[8:49] in the way that the American State Department
[8:52] utilizes it, which is a utilization of the term terrorism
[8:57] with the express purpose of denying habeas corpus.
[8:59] I think everyone needs to have their day in court,
[9:01] no matter how vile or heinous they might seem.
[9:04] Having said that, like I keep repeating over and over again,
[9:07] I think it's important to create accountability
[9:10] to make sure that we do not repeat these mistakes,
[9:12] not only because it creates an environment of blowback,
[9:15] but also because there's a finite amount of time
[9:19] and energy that we have, right?
[9:21] If we're using all of our productive output,
[9:24] all of our resources on waging wars overseas
[9:26] for profit and plunder,
[9:27] we're not using those resources on ourselves.
[9:30] We're not using it on building schools.
[9:33] We're not using these resources on fixing the pothole,
[9:36] something as simple as that.
[9:37] And we're losing our competitive edge around the globe.
[9:40] I'm an American citizen.
[9:42] I talk about how frustrated I am with this country.
[9:45] I even say, God, I hate this country sometimes.
[9:48] Having said that, if I truly hated this country,
[9:51] one, I'd probably be a Republican, let's be real,
[9:53] because I think they're destroying this country.
[9:56] Or I would just leave.
[9:58] There's a reason why I stay here.
[9:59] There's a reason why I keep advocating
[10:01] for the things that I'm advocating for,
[10:02] because I truly believe in the promise of America.
[10:05] I believe in the goodness of my neighbors.
[10:07] I believe in the goodness of American citizens.
[10:09] And I know that people of good conscious
[10:12] can see right from wrong.
[10:13] And a lot of people are frustrated
[10:16] because they're not seeing the changes
[10:17] and that develops, that breeds apathy.
[10:19] I want to fight back against that.
[10:21] And I want Americans to take control
[10:24] over the reins once again.
[10:25] (upbeat music)
[10:27] - I'm shifting topics, Charlie Kirk.
[10:32] You had known him for a long time.
[10:34] - Yeah.
[10:35] - After he was killed, you called it fucking devastating.
[10:38] You know, it's a horrifying thing you've ever seen
[10:40] and pure horror.
[10:42] But months later, you started sarcastically
[10:45] singing the song, "We Are Charlie Kirk."
[10:47] You sang it live last month on tour
[10:51] and later explained, "It's not my fault.
[10:52] The song is a banger."
[10:54] - Yes.
[10:55] - You told your followers when he was killed
[10:56] to stop making jokes.
[10:58] - Yeah.
[10:59] - But then why did you start?
[11:01] - Great question.
[11:01] The hagiography of Charlie Kirk was
[11:06] and the forced reverence coming from
[11:08] not only the Republican Party,
[11:09] but like the government in general.
[11:10] And even some members of the liberal intelligentsia
[11:14] was the reason why there was so much pushback.
[11:16] And even the "We Are Charlie Kirk" song itself
[11:19] is a way to, it was an attempt by a Republican,
[11:23] who was a fan of Charlie Kirk, to honor his legacy.
[11:27] While Charlie Kirk, the actions that took place,
[11:31] the assassination of Charlie Kirk is a heinous crime
[11:33] and completely unjustifiable,
[11:36] I very quickly also talked about my disagreements
[11:40] with Charlie Kirk.
[11:42] And there were plenty of people,
[11:43] plenty regular citizens who were doing that as well.
[11:45] There were people that--
[11:46] - I'm not pushing back.
[11:47] - No, no, no, no, no, but it's important
[11:49] because this is a big part of why this backlash.
[11:52] Or rather, this is a big part of why people
[11:54] took this not as seriously.
[11:56] The argument isn't, oh, these people are elated
[11:59] at the fact that Charlie Kirk.