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bastardizing a Mark Fisher quote to talk about the the inability of Democrats,

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winning fucking red states is crazy. Okay, let's just continue for Arkansas.

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And I think that's a problem. Yeah. So I think I think a couple things about

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that.

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First of all, I just want to bring in the, the, okay, everybody, one thing that

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you fundamentally

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misunderstand about Ezra Klein, Ezra Klein liberalism is that in many ways, he

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's actually not

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dissimilar to the way that destiny presents. So, you know, destiny is a fucking

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mercenary. He

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doesn't really give a shit about anything. But for Ezra Klein, the epitome is

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letting the

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Democratic Party win when he says, Oh, we have to let the Democratic Party win.

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We have to do

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anything in our power to let the Democratic Party win. What he's trying to say

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is because

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when the Democratic Party wins, and I'm sure he'll explain it in a second. The

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honest of quotes,

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it's still better than when the Republicans win. Okay. That's what his argument

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is. So

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everything that actually plays a role in undermining the chances of the

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Democrats winning

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is actually wrong and bad. If the Democrats are going further and further the

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right,

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at least they're not going to be as bad as the Republicans are. That's a

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problem.

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That is an issue. That is where that is at the heart of my disagreement with

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someone like Ezra

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Klein is that while marginal harm reduction narratives are theoretically true,

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this is this

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presents itself as a trap in the overton window shifting further and further to

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the right as the

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Democrats capitulate the right wing framing on all these issues. So that's

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number one.

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And number two, you usually end up losing anyway because it's not a good

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fucking way to present

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yourself. And we just lost his last election on those on those boundaries,

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historical perspective,

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not that long ago. I can remember when Obama won. And I believe you would

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remember this too. And

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there are all of these pieces about the end of conservatism and the end of the

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Republican Party.

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You don't know how it's going to go. Nobody, nobody, nobody really doesn't mean

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you shouldn't

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think about how it's going to go. Yes. But you really, no one really, really, I

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mean, again to

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and in 05, there were all these pieces about the end of the Democratic Party,

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right? Democrats

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had lost touch with the heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. They were never

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going to get it back.

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That's right. That's right. And so I think it's always like important to keep

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that in the background.

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Look, I have just in terms of bridging gaps and everything, I have a basic

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level of respect that

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I did I accord to everybody. You know what I mean? I want to say what I have to

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say. I don't want

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to shrink back from it. You know what I mean? But I do think on a basic level,

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there's a respect

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that has to be had for people that I that I disagree with, right? At the same

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time,

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I recognize that part of my audience, and I would say an important part of my

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audience,

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is people who have never enjoyed that respect. You know what I mean? People who

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, in fact,

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are subjects of the kind of hate that Charlie Kirk was harvesting. And I can't

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ever

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a contribute to making them feel like they've abandoned, they've been abandoned

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.

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And B, I can't ever stand by and watch somebody do that. And in the name of

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unity or whatever,

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act like that. That's not happening, because they're real consequences. And so

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it's like,

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when I read his words towards trans people, Jesus, what I read, you know what I

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mean?

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The language towards Haitian specific, which was very, very Haitians will

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become your masters

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if you don't like Charlie. I mean, it's very, very familiar to me. You know, it

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's this idea of

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Haitians coming into the country and we're going to rape being your daughters.

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I mean,

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this was really, really, really dark stuff is at the core of this country. And

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so

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I feel like for Haitian immigrants that are in, you know, Ohio, who are living

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under the

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weight of this, for trans kids who you know what I mean, are dealing with, you

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know, being,

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I don't even want to use the term bully, beaten up, attacked, threatened. You

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know what I mean?

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It's very, very important to me, given the post I have to say, I see you, but

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also this dude was

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wrong. And I'm all for unifying, I'm all for bridging gaps, but not at the

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expense of my

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neighbor's humanity. I just can't. I think this, the thing we go to there,

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right? Not at the expense

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of my neighbor's humanity. It's like, well, I can. Well, let me tell you how I

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can.

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Oh, don't worry, I can. Hold on. I'll explain.

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Because I've gotten a lot of that in email, right? Like, how am I supposed to

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talk to these people?

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How am I supposed to deal with these people who are denying my humanity? I'm

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not against

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talking about it. I'll talk to you very clearly. I have no problem with that. I

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guess

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the place where I'm not even 100% sure if we disagree, if you just like sort of

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see a role

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differently, right? I think that in losing as badly as we have, we have imper

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iled trans people

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terribly. Yes, politics is for power. You'll buy and did that. Politics is for

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power.

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He's doing it. He's doing exactly what I said he was going to do. He's going to

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tell you that,

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and by the way, there is, this is a wrong statement that he's going to deliver,

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but don't you think things will be better for trans people right now if Kamala

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Harris,

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after making concessions about transphobia and leaning into anti trans

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narratives,

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if she had won, don't you think things will be better for trans people as

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opposed to right now?

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The reason why this is wrong is twofold. Number one,

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at that point, you've all you've done is, once again, concede to the right wing

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framing on trans

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people presenting some outsized harm to the American population. It's not only

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incorrect,

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but it's a harmful narrative, and you've leaned into it. And in that process of

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leaning into it,

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you have normalized it. You have legitimized the claims of your opponent.

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Number two,

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your opponent in the aftermath of that recognition will just turn around and

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say, see these fucking

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pro trans losers even recognize I'm right. Vote for me. I will deal with the

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trans people with

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the integrity necessary. Okay. So not only do you look hypocritical, but you

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end up fucking

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losing for that reason, because you can never defeat the Republicans on hate m

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ongering. You just

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can't. Okay. The second part of the story that is also objectionable, which I

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have not even

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waited for his statement, by the way, and I'm already fucking arguing against

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what I know he's

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going to say with my heart of fucking hearts, because I've heard of so many

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goddamn times from

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other liberals, is that Joe Biden was president when Republicans were

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aggressively hitting the

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anti trans narratives, and also successfully implementing anti trans

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legislation at the state

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legislature level already building the fucking framework for what came next.

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And in the absence

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of fighting back against that, the administration also allowed this to happen

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in some very meaningful

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ways. Anyway, let's hear what Ezra has to say, though.

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And so I think that the question I am just genuinely struggling with isn't how

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to have like a great

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kumbaya moment. But I think it is taking seriously that something we're doing

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is not working. I mean,

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I'd Sarah McBride, who's the first trans member of Congress on the show. And

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you know, she was

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talking, we were talking about every single survey you can offer on like trans

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rights has gone in

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the wrong direction, basketball years, right? We've just begun to lose that

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argument terribly.

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And that has put people in real danger. So I take your point when you say, look

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, I want people to

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see you'll see in my writing. And I want people to feel seen in my writing and

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my podcasting.

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But I think that the place I'm trying to push towards is I think that there is

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a

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diminishment of the political coalition building that we now need to do,

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because we have come to the

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view that a pretty wide variety of people aren't some ways kind of deplorables.

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I think it's

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we can have been the last couple of years. I would never use that language.

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Jesus Christ. But

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like, I think about that, Hillary Clinton, that's what like, I would never say

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it like that.

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That's great. I think it's good that you wouldn't say it like that. But I still

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,

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I'm not. I don't even think that by the way, like I don't like, I don't even

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focus on people.

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Hey, look, I am at war with certain ideologies and ideas. And I want them

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explained. I want

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to turn them into phrenology. That's what I want. But I don't want the people.

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You know what I mean?

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Not a timely reference. Because if there's one ideology that was destroyed

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thoroughly,

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dismantled intellectually, that is making a major comeback, it is probably ph

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renology.

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So, oops, oops, phrenology is back out like when you start talking about who

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people are in their

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bones like that. So in a way, I'm not sure. I mean, in a way, I think we're

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saying something

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not too dissimilar here. I guess the place where I felt a lot of pushback and

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maybe this was not

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your pushback, right? Except for cop, phrenology, that's a real study. That's a

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real scientific

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study, as you guys know, was, you know, the first piece I can just sort of,

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like, I accept that

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there's a disagreement on like what to do in the 24 hours after a death. Like,

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you feel like I was

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white washing the guy and I felt like I was sort of, yeah, I know you do. I

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know you do. I know you do.

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The second piece I did, which I think you saw was more about this question of

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what are we going

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to do living here in sort of two types of disagreement, right? One with a right

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that has,

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where chocolate cookies become sort of the center of it, right? He's not

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unusual for the

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Maga coalition. He's a sort of uniting force within it. And the kind of things

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he believed in the way

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he did his politics. And then two, what are we going to do? Like, how are we

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going to be here with

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people? We're like halfway there, right? What does it mean to be in this

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political community

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together? What do you think about that question? About how to live together?

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Yeah. Well, first of all, I think it's a truth. You know what I mean? I think

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it's a, you know,

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like it's a foregone, like we are. Yeah, I really, really believe that, you

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know. There's no real

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choice about this. You know, I'm not renouncing my American citizenship. They

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're not renouncing

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their American citizenship. So this then, you know, as far as I'm concerned, it

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's a contest of ideas

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and narratives. Again, all I can go to is my role as a writer. And my role as a

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writer is to state

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things as clearly as I possibly can to make them in such a way that they haunt

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the state truths

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and to reinforce the probably the animating notion of my politics. And that is

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that all humanity is

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equal. And it's worthy of that. You know, and I actually think all of the sort

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of political

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and policy positions are, you know, that I probably find myself in sympathy

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with are attempting to

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affect that, you know, in the real world. And so, and again, I'm putting aside

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your piece, but I'm

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just thinking about the moment we're in. When I hear or see people who are

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honored and commemorated

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in such a way so that they almost become a national religious figure. And then

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I see their content.

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And I see that their content is actively destructive to humanity. I have to

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draw a line there. Like,

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I just, I think like, for me, like the bigger question is where the lines, you

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know what I mean?

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And I think there's no problem with saying, listen, you can't hear all epitaff

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es of people. Yeah,

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I would if you do that. I'm sorry. Look, you want to have a debate about

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whether we should

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have affirmative action, you know, in colleges. I'm here for it. You want to

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have what does it

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mean to be on the other side of the line? I'm sorry. What do you mean? What is

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it?

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So once somebody's on the other side of the line, right? What does that mean

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for you? For instance,

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once you think it's okay? No, no, I am too. Yes. Once you for whatever,

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whatever the definition of

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the line is, right? What does it mean for you for somebody to be on the other

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side of it, right?

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Not somebody who just died, right? But somebody still living, right? If you

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think it is okay to

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dehumanize people, then conversation between you and I is probably not possible

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. And so what do you

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do with the fact that so many people think that it's okay? I think what you try

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to do is, again,

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again, this is the difference, right? Like, I don't necessarily have the

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crystal ball to say that in

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this time, I'm going to be able to convince a majority of people, that's an

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instance. Let's just

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take the thing that's hot right now, trans folks are human beings and deserve

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human. Although, I think

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most people know that you shouldn't say what he said. Like that shit is rude.

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It's just rude to

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talk to people like that. And I think most people know that. So it's something,