IC–005 | Kamala Wouldn’t Have Been Better for Trans People Than MAGA
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[0:00] bastardizing a Mark Fisher quote to talk about the the inability of Democrats,
[0:05] winning fucking red states is crazy. Okay, let's just continue for Arkansas.
[0:13] And I think that's a problem. Yeah. So I think I think a couple things about
[0:18] that.
[0:18] First of all, I just want to bring in the, the, okay, everybody, one thing that
[0:23] you fundamentally
[0:23] misunderstand about Ezra Klein, Ezra Klein liberalism is that in many ways, he
[0:30] 's actually not
[0:30] dissimilar to the way that destiny presents. So, you know, destiny is a fucking
[0:34] mercenary. He
[0:35] doesn't really give a shit about anything. But for Ezra Klein, the epitome is
[0:39] letting the
[0:41] Democratic Party win when he says, Oh, we have to let the Democratic Party win.
[0:45] We have to do
[0:46] anything in our power to let the Democratic Party win. What he's trying to say
[0:51] is because
[0:51] when the Democratic Party wins, and I'm sure he'll explain it in a second. The
[0:55] honest of quotes,
[0:56] it's still better than when the Republicans win. Okay. That's what his argument
[1:03] is. So
[1:03] everything that actually plays a role in undermining the chances of the
[1:08] Democrats winning
[1:09] is actually wrong and bad. If the Democrats are going further and further the
[1:15] right,
[1:15] at least they're not going to be as bad as the Republicans are. That's a
[1:20] problem.
[1:21] That is an issue. That is where that is at the heart of my disagreement with
[1:24] someone like Ezra
[1:25] Klein is that while marginal harm reduction narratives are theoretically true,
[1:32] this is this
[1:33] presents itself as a trap in the overton window shifting further and further to
[1:37] the right as the
[1:37] Democrats capitulate the right wing framing on all these issues. So that's
[1:41] number one.
[1:42] And number two, you usually end up losing anyway because it's not a good
[1:45] fucking way to present
[1:46] yourself. And we just lost his last election on those on those boundaries,
[1:55] historical perspective,
[1:56] not that long ago. I can remember when Obama won. And I believe you would
[1:59] remember this too. And
[2:00] there are all of these pieces about the end of conservatism and the end of the
[2:03] Republican Party.
[2:04] You don't know how it's going to go. Nobody, nobody, nobody really doesn't mean
[2:08] you shouldn't
[2:08] think about how it's going to go. Yes. But you really, no one really, really, I
[2:11] mean, again to
[2:11] and in 05, there were all these pieces about the end of the Democratic Party,
[2:14] right? Democrats
[2:14] had lost touch with the heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. They were never
[2:17] going to get it back.
[2:17] That's right. That's right. And so I think it's always like important to keep
[2:20] that in the background.
[2:21] Look, I have just in terms of bridging gaps and everything, I have a basic
[2:25] level of respect that
[2:26] I did I accord to everybody. You know what I mean? I want to say what I have to
[2:29] say. I don't want
[2:30] to shrink back from it. You know what I mean? But I do think on a basic level,
[2:33] there's a respect
[2:35] that has to be had for people that I that I disagree with, right? At the same
[2:38] time,
[2:40] I recognize that part of my audience, and I would say an important part of my
[2:44] audience,
[2:45] is people who have never enjoyed that respect. You know what I mean? People who
[2:49] , in fact,
[2:50] are subjects of the kind of hate that Charlie Kirk was harvesting. And I can't
[2:59] ever
[2:59] a contribute to making them feel like they've abandoned, they've been abandoned
[3:04] .
[3:04] And B, I can't ever stand by and watch somebody do that. And in the name of
[3:11] unity or whatever,
[3:13] act like that. That's not happening, because they're real consequences. And so
[3:16] it's like,
[3:16] when I read his words towards trans people, Jesus, what I read, you know what I
[3:23] mean?
[3:23] The language towards Haitian specific, which was very, very Haitians will
[3:25] become your masters
[3:27] if you don't like Charlie. I mean, it's very, very familiar to me. You know, it
[3:29] 's this idea of
[3:30] Haitians coming into the country and we're going to rape being your daughters.
[3:33] I mean,
[3:33] this was really, really, really dark stuff is at the core of this country. And
[3:38] so
[3:39] I feel like for Haitian immigrants that are in, you know, Ohio, who are living
[3:44] under the
[3:44] weight of this, for trans kids who you know what I mean, are dealing with, you
[3:48] know, being,
[3:49] I don't even want to use the term bully, beaten up, attacked, threatened. You
[3:52] know what I mean?
[3:53] It's very, very important to me, given the post I have to say, I see you, but
[3:59] also this dude was
[4:00] wrong. And I'm all for unifying, I'm all for bridging gaps, but not at the
[4:04] expense of my
[4:05] neighbor's humanity. I just can't. I think this, the thing we go to there,
[4:08] right? Not at the expense
[4:09] of my neighbor's humanity. It's like, well, I can. Well, let me tell you how I
[4:14] can.
[4:15] Oh, don't worry, I can. Hold on. I'll explain.
[4:30] Because I've gotten a lot of that in email, right? Like, how am I supposed to
[4:32] talk to these people?
[4:33] How am I supposed to deal with these people who are denying my humanity? I'm
[4:36] not against
[4:36] talking about it. I'll talk to you very clearly. I have no problem with that. I
[4:40] guess
[4:40] the place where I'm not even 100% sure if we disagree, if you just like sort of
[4:45] see a role
[4:46] differently, right? I think that in losing as badly as we have, we have imper
[4:53] iled trans people
[4:53] terribly. Yes, politics is for power. You'll buy and did that. Politics is for
[4:58] power.
[5:01] He's doing it. He's doing exactly what I said he was going to do. He's going to
[5:07] tell you that,
[5:08] and by the way, there is, this is a wrong statement that he's going to deliver,
[5:14] but don't you think things will be better for trans people right now if Kamala
[5:17] Harris,
[5:18] after making concessions about transphobia and leaning into anti trans
[5:23] narratives,
[5:24] if she had won, don't you think things will be better for trans people as
[5:27] opposed to right now?
[5:28] The reason why this is wrong is twofold. Number one,
[5:31] at that point, you've all you've done is, once again, concede to the right wing
[5:39] framing on trans
[5:41] people presenting some outsized harm to the American population. It's not only
[5:45] incorrect,
[5:46] but it's a harmful narrative, and you've leaned into it. And in that process of
[5:50] leaning into it,
[5:52] you have normalized it. You have legitimized the claims of your opponent.
[5:56] Number two,
[5:57] your opponent in the aftermath of that recognition will just turn around and
[6:03] say, see these fucking
[6:05] pro trans losers even recognize I'm right. Vote for me. I will deal with the
[6:12] trans people with
[6:13] the integrity necessary. Okay. So not only do you look hypocritical, but you
[6:20] end up fucking
[6:21] losing for that reason, because you can never defeat the Republicans on hate m
[6:26] ongering. You just
[6:27] can't. Okay. The second part of the story that is also objectionable, which I
[6:41] have not even
[6:41] waited for his statement, by the way, and I'm already fucking arguing against
[6:45] what I know he's
[6:46] going to say with my heart of fucking hearts, because I've heard of so many
[6:48] goddamn times from
[6:49] other liberals, is that Joe Biden was president when Republicans were
[6:56] aggressively hitting the
[6:59] anti trans narratives, and also successfully implementing anti trans
[7:04] legislation at the state
[7:06] legislature level already building the fucking framework for what came next.
[7:12] And in the absence
[7:14] of fighting back against that, the administration also allowed this to happen
[7:18] in some very meaningful
[7:19] ways. Anyway, let's hear what Ezra has to say, though.
[7:22] And so I think that the question I am just genuinely struggling with isn't how
[7:28] to have like a great
[7:29] kumbaya moment. But I think it is taking seriously that something we're doing
[7:33] is not working. I mean,
[7:34] I'd Sarah McBride, who's the first trans member of Congress on the show. And
[7:38] you know, she was
[7:39] talking, we were talking about every single survey you can offer on like trans
[7:44] rights has gone in
[7:45] the wrong direction, basketball years, right? We've just begun to lose that
[7:47] argument terribly.
[7:48] And that has put people in real danger. So I take your point when you say, look
[7:51] , I want people to
[7:52] see you'll see in my writing. And I want people to feel seen in my writing and
[7:55] my podcasting.
[7:56] But I think that the place I'm trying to push towards is I think that there is
[8:03] a
[8:03] diminishment of the political coalition building that we now need to do,
[8:10] because we have come to the
[8:10] view that a pretty wide variety of people aren't some ways kind of deplorables.
[8:14] I think it's
[8:14] we can have been the last couple of years. I would never use that language.
[8:16] Jesus Christ. But
[8:18] like, I think about that, Hillary Clinton, that's what like, I would never say
[8:20] it like that.
[8:21] That's great. I think it's good that you wouldn't say it like that. But I still
[8:23] ,
[8:23] I'm not. I don't even think that by the way, like I don't like, I don't even
[8:25] focus on people.
[8:26] Hey, look, I am at war with certain ideologies and ideas. And I want them
[8:30] explained. I want
[8:31] to turn them into phrenology. That's what I want. But I don't want the people.
[8:35] You know what I mean?
[8:36] Not a timely reference. Because if there's one ideology that was destroyed
[8:43] thoroughly,
[8:44] dismantled intellectually, that is making a major comeback, it is probably ph
[8:48] renology.
[8:48] So, oops, oops, phrenology is back out like when you start talking about who
[8:56] people are in their
[8:56] bones like that. So in a way, I'm not sure. I mean, in a way, I think we're
[9:00] saying something
[9:01] not too dissimilar here. I guess the place where I felt a lot of pushback and
[9:07] maybe this was not
[9:08] your pushback, right? Except for cop, phrenology, that's a real study. That's a
[9:12] real scientific
[9:13] study, as you guys know, was, you know, the first piece I can just sort of,
[9:20] like, I accept that
[9:20] there's a disagreement on like what to do in the 24 hours after a death. Like,
[9:22] you feel like I was
[9:23] white washing the guy and I felt like I was sort of, yeah, I know you do. I
[9:26] know you do. I know you do.
[9:27] The second piece I did, which I think you saw was more about this question of
[9:32] what are we going
[9:34] to do living here in sort of two types of disagreement, right? One with a right
[9:41] that has,
[9:41] where chocolate cookies become sort of the center of it, right? He's not
[9:44] unusual for the
[9:44] Maga coalition. He's a sort of uniting force within it. And the kind of things
[9:48] he believed in the way
[9:49] he did his politics. And then two, what are we going to do? Like, how are we
[9:55] going to be here with
[9:56] people? We're like halfway there, right? What does it mean to be in this
[9:59] political community
[9:59] together? What do you think about that question? About how to live together?
[10:04] Yeah. Well, first of all, I think it's a truth. You know what I mean? I think
[10:07] it's a, you know,
[10:07] like it's a foregone, like we are. Yeah, I really, really believe that, you
[10:10] know. There's no real
[10:12] choice about this. You know, I'm not renouncing my American citizenship. They
[10:15] 're not renouncing
[10:16] their American citizenship. So this then, you know, as far as I'm concerned, it
[10:19] 's a contest of ideas
[10:20] and narratives. Again, all I can go to is my role as a writer. And my role as a
[10:24] writer is to state
[10:25] things as clearly as I possibly can to make them in such a way that they haunt
[10:28] the state truths
[10:30] and to reinforce the probably the animating notion of my politics. And that is
[10:34] that all humanity is
[10:35] equal. And it's worthy of that. You know, and I actually think all of the sort
[10:39] of political
[10:39] and policy positions are, you know, that I probably find myself in sympathy
[10:42] with are attempting to
[10:43] affect that, you know, in the real world. And so, and again, I'm putting aside
[10:46] your piece, but I'm
[10:46] just thinking about the moment we're in. When I hear or see people who are
[10:55] honored and commemorated
[11:01] in such a way so that they almost become a national religious figure. And then
[11:05] I see their content.
[11:06] And I see that their content is actively destructive to humanity. I have to
[11:12] draw a line there. Like,
[11:14] I just, I think like, for me, like the bigger question is where the lines, you
[11:18] know what I mean?
[11:18] And I think there's no problem with saying, listen, you can't hear all epitaff
[11:21] es of people. Yeah,
[11:21] I would if you do that. I'm sorry. Look, you want to have a debate about
[11:24] whether we should
[11:25] have affirmative action, you know, in colleges. I'm here for it. You want to
[11:28] have what does it
[11:28] mean to be on the other side of the line? I'm sorry. What do you mean? What is
[11:32] it?
[11:32] So once somebody's on the other side of the line, right? What does that mean
[11:34] for you? For instance,
[11:35] once you think it's okay? No, no, I am too. Yes. Once you for whatever,
[11:40] whatever the definition of
[11:40] the line is, right? What does it mean for you for somebody to be on the other
[11:43] side of it, right?
[11:44] Not somebody who just died, right? But somebody still living, right? If you
[11:47] think it is okay to
[11:49] dehumanize people, then conversation between you and I is probably not possible
[11:53] . And so what do you
[11:55] do with the fact that so many people think that it's okay? I think what you try
[11:59] to do is, again,
[12:00] again, this is the difference, right? Like, I don't necessarily have the
[12:05] crystal ball to say that in
[12:06] this time, I'm going to be able to convince a majority of people, that's an
[12:09] instance. Let's just
[12:10] take the thing that's hot right now, trans folks are human beings and deserve
[12:13] human. Although, I think
[12:14] most people know that you shouldn't say what he said. Like that shit is rude.
[12:17] It's just rude to
[12:17] talk to people like that. And I think most people know that. So it's something,